Pennsylvania, the nation’s poster child for dysfunctional government, has put two of its farmers in jail without a court hearing and without an option for bail. There were no campus riots.
You can share it I do all the time. If you’re on an iPhone just hit the up arrow at the bottom of the page and select the x app. You may have to fill in the name of the article but most of the time it’s populated.
Good grief. It's just a small mouse attached to a picture reading machine. There is either an embryo showing up or not. Take the picture and let the cow owner decide what's there. Licensed to operate, geez. With that being said, the Amish are the real target. The USG has limited legal hold on them. Same with states. But they can be bulled by bulling other people that the Amish find beneficial.
On a side note: Veterinarians use big pharma to keep business at a peak. They canvas state officers and lawmakers using medical terminology and studies (most bogus in MHO) to get mandatory vaccination laws on cats, dogs, horses (movement across state lines), and many other animals. With regard to the article in question, my first thought was local vets were angry that clients or potential clients found another avenue to detect pregnancy. Cats and dogs are affected negatively by vaccines just like humans are, especial the young who are not allowed to build internal defenses to viruses and diseases.
I've breed horses for decades and its very expensive to haul your horses to the vets for those ultrasounds or to pay a trip charge to have them come out. Same with the AI process. Compare this to the states that require a license (that requires schooling) to be a beautician, in other words, to cut other people's hair.
Are you being deliberately misleading with this coverage, or are you merely misinformed? There is a legitimate discussion to be had about what activities should actually require a veterinarian's involvement. You are devaluing that discussion with misleading articles such as this.
The two owners of NoBull solutions were issued Cease & Desists in 2010 and 2018. They were not in business together yet at that point. They were fined, but the fines were not paid, allegedly on the advice of their former attorney.
The PA department of state conducted an investigation in 2021 after receiving a complaint that they were violating their C&D's. The complainted was submitted by the PaVMA (Pennsylvania Veterinary Medical Association)-- an advocacy group that is entirely separate by the Department of State's veterinary board. As part of the DoS' investigation, they got the Commonwealth Court to issue a subpoena for certain business records from NoBull.
NoBull ignored the subpoena from 2021-present. From 2021-2023, there were various hearings in the Commonwealth Court about enforcement of this subpoena, culminating in warrants being issued in October 2023 for the owners' arrests. At every step along the way, NoBull was served notice of these hearings, did not attend or respond in any way, and was served notice of the outcomes of the hearings.
As a matter of standard practice, The State seals dockets pertaining to ongoing investigations. Many investigations originate from baseless accusations, so the dockets are kept sealed to protect the privacy of people who have not yet been accused of any wrongdoing. The docket was unsealed recently. You can find it with a search for docket # 325 MD 2021.
I am not an attorney, and I do not have an informed opinion on the validity of the subpoena and the State's authority to imprison people for contempt. But surely, the appropriate response to legal proceedings that you dislike is not to ignore them and hope that they go away?
Thank you for your lengthy comments and for your additional details. Nevertheless I stand by the incontrovertible fact that citizens were arrested and sent to jail for thirty days without a court hearing. Considering the counties involved, I also personally believe the arrests are part of Pennsylvania’s harassment of Amish farmers.
By the way, Mr King, I don’t think you watched the podcast I included in my post. It discussed the veterinary issues in detail. I suggest you watch it.
Thanks for your response, Mr. Nagle. Too many bloggers/ reporters/ other content creators are unwilling to engage in meaningful discussion with their audience.
You say that they were sent to jail for thirty days without a hearing. What about the hearing on November 30 2021, regarding enforcement of the subpoena? What about the hearing on May 16 2023, regarding contempt of court for ignoring the subpoena? Both of these were ignored by Rusty and Ethan. Item 3 of the order coming out of the 2023 hearing included a statement that failure to purge contempt could lead to the court issuing a warrant for their arrest and incarceration.
Re. the podcast-- I've been following coverage of this case very closely, and I watched the podcast the day that it came out.
* The "pregnancy is not a disease" thing is misdirection-- "diagnosis" does not imply "disease". A determination of pregnancy (or lack thereof) is a diagnosis of a condition.
* Re. PA state law etc: the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act specifically exempts people performing work on their own animals, and "normal husbandry practices" for various farm animals. Agreed that the "normal husbandry" thing is vague and invites confusion. However, the law defers interpretation to the state vet board, which has been consistent in their position that ultrasound preg checks constitute practice of veterinary medicine.
* Re. state board jurisdiction over non-licensed people: The PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act gives the board broad authority to enforce the law, and does not limit its jurisdiction to licensed veterinarians. See Section 27 (Enforcement Duties and Powers) for the most direct statement on their authority, but other examples are scattered throughout the Act as well.
* They mentioned AI techs in their home state (NC). This is legal in PA as well. AI is also the core of NoBull's business. AI is less invasive than ultrasound, and does not depend upon the technician making a diagnosis. Owner observes the animal to determine when it's in heat, then calls the AI tech to impregnate the animal.
* Podcaster also spoke at length about the legal processes-- due process, sealed docket, etc. That all has been addressed by the unsealed docket.
I'll also add: It is not reasonable for the state legislature to be expected to have a working knowledge of the ethics and best practices involved in veterinary medicine, and human medicine, and engineering, and real estate, and all of the dozens of other specialties that require state licensing. So the state law defers that determination to boards of experts in those various fields. This is standard practice across most (all?) states, and I'm not sure what viable alternative even exists.
For what it's worth, I have no personal connection to any of the players in this case. I am, however personally affected by it, and have been following it closely. The initial reporting of "jailed for ultrasounding with no notice or explanation" made no sense to me, so I decided to dig deeper. It seems to me that Rusty and Ethan (and their legal representation) took advantage of the "sealed docket" situation to spread misinformation.
Edited to add-- "harassment of Amish farmers"-- I can assure you that the state is not specifically targeting the Amish. If you're referring to the Amos Miller thing, I will point you to the tens of thousands of other Amish farmers in the state who have no issue complying with state and federal food safety standards.
Thank you for the kind words. We'll just have to have our own views about the intent of the parties involved in this instance, I reckon. I do wonder how you are "personally affected by it."
I think it's worthwhile to separate "the intent of the parties involved" from the law. Both are worth discussing, but should not be conflated with each other.
Did the vet board pursue action against these men out of legitimate concern for their clients, or the welfare of the animals, or public health? Or was it a cash grab attempt to stomp out lower-priced competitors? We both have our suspicions, but neither of us were part of any of the decisions.
Ultimately, though, that question is irrelevant to the legalities involved. Are any of the facts below in question?
* The law gives the state vet board broad authority to investigate and discipline violations of the veterinary practice act, including unlicensed practice.
* The vet board considers determination of pregnancy status via ultrasound to be "practice of veterinary medicine". Ethan and Rusty were both aware of this from their prior C&D orders.
* The vet board received a subsequent complaint about Ethan and Rusty, initiated an investigation, and got a subpoena from the Commonwealth Court for specific records relevant to the investigation.
* Ethan and Rusty ignored the subpoena and all follow-up actions, notices, and communications for over two years.
I do not know the requirements or norms around enforcement of subpoenas or consequences of contempt. My efforts to independently research the topic have led me down a maze of seemingly contradictory laws, presumably addressing subtly different scenarios which I lack the legal competency to differentiate between. But surely a person cannot just ignore a valid court order indefinitely without eventually facing consequences?
Unfortunately Mr. King, I do not have the time to further pursue our differences on the imprisonment of the two Pennsylvania farmers, and I thank you again for your detailed research on the issue. Still, you did not answer my simple question about how you were "personally affected by it." Sorry for the presumption, but are you from an Amish family? A yes or no will do since, as I said, I cannot continue our discussion further,
So you have time to write a post about Rusty and Ethan's arrests, but you do not have time to research the circumstances leading to them? That strikes me as irresponsible journalism.
Any person in Pennsylvania who owns or works with animals is personally affected by this case on some level. Personally, I strive to keep my operations compliant. If the publicity around this case results in changes to applicable Pennsylvania law, that may impact how I operate my business.
I am not personally Amish, as you can probably presume from my willingness to engage in an internet discussion with a stranger on Ascension Thursday. I do have many close personal connections in the Amish community, and I spend many holidays in Amish homes. I'll leave it at that.
wish I could share this on X.
You can share it I do all the time. If you’re on an iPhone just hit the up arrow at the bottom of the page and select the x app. You may have to fill in the name of the article but most of the time it’s populated.
I am far from an X expert, Michael, but I think you could post it on X by posting the link to the article, which is: https://chetnagle.substack.com/p/pennsylvania-jails-two-citizens-without
Good grief. It's just a small mouse attached to a picture reading machine. There is either an embryo showing up or not. Take the picture and let the cow owner decide what's there. Licensed to operate, geez. With that being said, the Amish are the real target. The USG has limited legal hold on them. Same with states. But they can be bulled by bulling other people that the Amish find beneficial.
You understand it exactly, Shelley. Thank you!
On a side note: Veterinarians use big pharma to keep business at a peak. They canvas state officers and lawmakers using medical terminology and studies (most bogus in MHO) to get mandatory vaccination laws on cats, dogs, horses (movement across state lines), and many other animals. With regard to the article in question, my first thought was local vets were angry that clients or potential clients found another avenue to detect pregnancy. Cats and dogs are affected negatively by vaccines just like humans are, especial the young who are not allowed to build internal defenses to viruses and diseases.
I've breed horses for decades and its very expensive to haul your horses to the vets for those ultrasounds or to pay a trip charge to have them come out. Same with the AI process. Compare this to the states that require a license (that requires schooling) to be a beautician, in other words, to cut other people's hair.
Thank you Shelley! Your comment is a testament to your personal experience - and a breath of fresh air!
Are you being deliberately misleading with this coverage, or are you merely misinformed? There is a legitimate discussion to be had about what activities should actually require a veterinarian's involvement. You are devaluing that discussion with misleading articles such as this.
The two owners of NoBull solutions were issued Cease & Desists in 2010 and 2018. They were not in business together yet at that point. They were fined, but the fines were not paid, allegedly on the advice of their former attorney.
The PA department of state conducted an investigation in 2021 after receiving a complaint that they were violating their C&D's. The complainted was submitted by the PaVMA (Pennsylvania Veterinary Medical Association)-- an advocacy group that is entirely separate by the Department of State's veterinary board. As part of the DoS' investigation, they got the Commonwealth Court to issue a subpoena for certain business records from NoBull.
NoBull ignored the subpoena from 2021-present. From 2021-2023, there were various hearings in the Commonwealth Court about enforcement of this subpoena, culminating in warrants being issued in October 2023 for the owners' arrests. At every step along the way, NoBull was served notice of these hearings, did not attend or respond in any way, and was served notice of the outcomes of the hearings.
As a matter of standard practice, The State seals dockets pertaining to ongoing investigations. Many investigations originate from baseless accusations, so the dockets are kept sealed to protect the privacy of people who have not yet been accused of any wrongdoing. The docket was unsealed recently. You can find it with a search for docket # 325 MD 2021.
I am not an attorney, and I do not have an informed opinion on the validity of the subpoena and the State's authority to imprison people for contempt. But surely, the appropriate response to legal proceedings that you dislike is not to ignore them and hope that they go away?
Thank you for your lengthy comments and for your additional details. Nevertheless I stand by the incontrovertible fact that citizens were arrested and sent to jail for thirty days without a court hearing. Considering the counties involved, I also personally believe the arrests are part of Pennsylvania’s harassment of Amish farmers.
By the way, Mr King, I don’t think you watched the podcast I included in my post. It discussed the veterinary issues in detail. I suggest you watch it.
Thanks for your response, Mr. Nagle. Too many bloggers/ reporters/ other content creators are unwilling to engage in meaningful discussion with their audience.
You say that they were sent to jail for thirty days without a hearing. What about the hearing on November 30 2021, regarding enforcement of the subpoena? What about the hearing on May 16 2023, regarding contempt of court for ignoring the subpoena? Both of these were ignored by Rusty and Ethan. Item 3 of the order coming out of the 2023 hearing included a statement that failure to purge contempt could lead to the court issuing a warrant for their arrest and incarceration.
Re. the podcast-- I've been following coverage of this case very closely, and I watched the podcast the day that it came out.
* The "pregnancy is not a disease" thing is misdirection-- "diagnosis" does not imply "disease". A determination of pregnancy (or lack thereof) is a diagnosis of a condition.
* Re. PA state law etc: the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act specifically exempts people performing work on their own animals, and "normal husbandry practices" for various farm animals. Agreed that the "normal husbandry" thing is vague and invites confusion. However, the law defers interpretation to the state vet board, which has been consistent in their position that ultrasound preg checks constitute practice of veterinary medicine.
* Re. state board jurisdiction over non-licensed people: The PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act gives the board broad authority to enforce the law, and does not limit its jurisdiction to licensed veterinarians. See Section 27 (Enforcement Duties and Powers) for the most direct statement on their authority, but other examples are scattered throughout the Act as well.
* They mentioned AI techs in their home state (NC). This is legal in PA as well. AI is also the core of NoBull's business. AI is less invasive than ultrasound, and does not depend upon the technician making a diagnosis. Owner observes the animal to determine when it's in heat, then calls the AI tech to impregnate the animal.
* Podcaster also spoke at length about the legal processes-- due process, sealed docket, etc. That all has been addressed by the unsealed docket.
I'll also add: It is not reasonable for the state legislature to be expected to have a working knowledge of the ethics and best practices involved in veterinary medicine, and human medicine, and engineering, and real estate, and all of the dozens of other specialties that require state licensing. So the state law defers that determination to boards of experts in those various fields. This is standard practice across most (all?) states, and I'm not sure what viable alternative even exists.
For what it's worth, I have no personal connection to any of the players in this case. I am, however personally affected by it, and have been following it closely. The initial reporting of "jailed for ultrasounding with no notice or explanation" made no sense to me, so I decided to dig deeper. It seems to me that Rusty and Ethan (and their legal representation) took advantage of the "sealed docket" situation to spread misinformation.
Edited to add-- "harassment of Amish farmers"-- I can assure you that the state is not specifically targeting the Amish. If you're referring to the Amos Miller thing, I will point you to the tens of thousands of other Amish farmers in the state who have no issue complying with state and federal food safety standards.
Thank you for the kind words. We'll just have to have our own views about the intent of the parties involved in this instance, I reckon. I do wonder how you are "personally affected by it."
I think it's worthwhile to separate "the intent of the parties involved" from the law. Both are worth discussing, but should not be conflated with each other.
Did the vet board pursue action against these men out of legitimate concern for their clients, or the welfare of the animals, or public health? Or was it a cash grab attempt to stomp out lower-priced competitors? We both have our suspicions, but neither of us were part of any of the decisions.
Ultimately, though, that question is irrelevant to the legalities involved. Are any of the facts below in question?
* The law gives the state vet board broad authority to investigate and discipline violations of the veterinary practice act, including unlicensed practice.
* The vet board considers determination of pregnancy status via ultrasound to be "practice of veterinary medicine". Ethan and Rusty were both aware of this from their prior C&D orders.
* The vet board received a subsequent complaint about Ethan and Rusty, initiated an investigation, and got a subpoena from the Commonwealth Court for specific records relevant to the investigation.
* Ethan and Rusty ignored the subpoena and all follow-up actions, notices, and communications for over two years.
I do not know the requirements or norms around enforcement of subpoenas or consequences of contempt. My efforts to independently research the topic have led me down a maze of seemingly contradictory laws, presumably addressing subtly different scenarios which I lack the legal competency to differentiate between. But surely a person cannot just ignore a valid court order indefinitely without eventually facing consequences?
Unfortunately Mr. King, I do not have the time to further pursue our differences on the imprisonment of the two Pennsylvania farmers, and I thank you again for your detailed research on the issue. Still, you did not answer my simple question about how you were "personally affected by it." Sorry for the presumption, but are you from an Amish family? A yes or no will do since, as I said, I cannot continue our discussion further,
So you have time to write a post about Rusty and Ethan's arrests, but you do not have time to research the circumstances leading to them? That strikes me as irresponsible journalism.
Any person in Pennsylvania who owns or works with animals is personally affected by this case on some level. Personally, I strive to keep my operations compliant. If the publicity around this case results in changes to applicable Pennsylvania law, that may impact how I operate my business.
I am not personally Amish, as you can probably presume from my willingness to engage in an internet discussion with a stranger on Ascension Thursday. I do have many close personal connections in the Amish community, and I spend many holidays in Amish homes. I'll leave it at that.
🙏🙏
To understand more on the horrific & insane times just ahead of us, pls visit https://bibleprophecyinaction.blogspot.com/
Ultrasounds machines for farms are available in caralogs. We almost bought one for our humane pigs but could not justify the costs.
Look at the high cost of that machine as a blessing. You could have been jailed!